Hi. Can you see me and hear me? Hey. I can see and hear everything. Can you do the same with me?

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Brilliant.

Hello. It's it's nice to meet you. Hi. Thank you so much for participating. It it means a lot to me.

Thank you so much. Not at all. It's a pleasure. Uh-huh. Okay.

Shoot. Do you have any, like, questions or whatever? I'm I'm really interested in your topic of research. It's really cool. Oh, yeah.

Okay. So I have, like, a powerpoint here. So it's basically I did, like, an action research thing and I put I basically threw all the feedback into a powerpoint, so I'll just share that on screen if you are okay with it. Okay. Right.

Okay. Share. I don't know if you can see my screen? Yes. Okay.

Which is brilliant. Okay. Just to be sure, can I record this, this meeting with you? Because Go ahead. Yeah.

Okay. Okay. Thank you. Thank you. Because, like, I I I'm doing this for school for the NAB evidence.

Sorry about that. Yeah. Thank you so much. It's alright. Yeah.

Okay. So, basically what this is all about is that, I wanted to find out whether people can, cert like like find out the difference between original fiction and fan fiction by just reading like an excerpt and, because I I I've, like, based on my own research and personal experience, I've read, like, a lot of, fan fiction of, like, original works that are, like, to, like in my opinion, like as good or even better than the original fic itself and I was a bit like peeved that, there's like negative stereotypes about fanfics like being like lower grits like or like bad art in a way, so so I try so I, basically, caught out to people and asked them to read like to read 2 different excerpts from, like, the same genre, so basically this is, as you can tell, I think this is Treasure Island and this is like a fan fic of Treasure Island and if I don't really tell them which one is the original, can they tell the difference Can they tell, like, which one is the original thick? And, basically I did this in like, 4 main different genres because, like, I asked I did like an a query thing beforehand and there's like, a lot a lot of people like interested in adventure and romance and, and also like there's like detective stories and so I picked the like the most, the most like genres that people, liked and enjoyed.

And basically, the, the feedback I got was that, out of 23 people, only 4 people got it wrong. Like, so basically everybody could tell from this one passage that, this one is is like the original thing. So, I was wondering, what, how you would think about that feedback and, what you could say, like, based on your experience. So up to that. Yeah.

Well, what you got here is from Wuthering Heights. It's Yeah. Like the most famous lines. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. So perhaps maybe to be a bit trickier Yeah. Try something that people are not so completely aware of because this particular line whatever upsells are made of, his and mine are the same. It's like every school child knows it. Okay.

People are going to know that it's not a fanfic. I read those excerpts that you sent me. Yeah. Yeah. Pride and Prejudice and, Good Omens.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, yeah.

Of course, I could tell but, that was different things. Yeah. I think a better choice Uh-huh. Because it's not that in your face famous. Okay.

Right. And and what what is the Uh-huh. Like, what what is the purpose here? Are you trying to say that Pamperscale is as good as mainstream literature, or are you trying to find out if they've got some different perhaps narrative techniques, elements, stuff. So so what's the angle?

I think, I was trying to prove that fan fiction is, like, publishable. It's like a publishable medium. It's only not publishable because of, like, copyright infringement because they are playing in other people's sandboxes. Yes. So, this part, I think probably, like, this as an intervention has, like, technically, it's once, like, almost the direct opposite direction of what I had, I think, what, what I thought would happen.

So, I, I think, this part, what you're saying is like I absolutely agree with what you're saying because I picked like the most famous one of the most famous literatures of all time and there's like, I think like fantasy and sci fi. I did pick like several, like more more of like literature pop culture That's, those, I think those I thought were, like, harder to, def like define or, like, tell which one is like the original one and, but like most people got them right as well Okay. Which is quite Why do you think that is? I'm not quite sure. So based on the feedback that I got, I think, like, about 4 or 5 people said that, the original fiction had, like, more details and the fanfic was mostly like, writing about like people's inner psych psychological thinking and there weren't a lot of details.

And yeah. That that's when I I that was, like like very positive feedback because I didn't really, take that into account when I picked the excerpts honestly. Yeah, so yeah. Well, which like theoretical works have you used when it comes to fan and text studies? Because you've got some very interesting books about that by, Francesca Coppa, Karen Hellickson, and Christina Bussey.

So they particularly Coppa goes into great detail about which particular elements are particular for fanfic and which are for mainstream literature. So Mhmm. That that should be useful to you as well. And what you just said is, like, one of the main reasons because fanfic focuses on the character as opposed like, we don't read it because we want some particular literary experiment. Right?

We want to see what the characters are doing when they're not in the original fiction. Okay. Right. Okay. So, I think, basically, like, I I, conducted, like, an after, intervention feedback and that was, like, the main thing.

So, okay, so I'm just, like, I'll just gonna, like, quickly go over here. So, this part is, basically like, do you consider fan fiction as like a valid form storytelling? I'll have to say, okay. I'll I'll definitely, like, take the feedback and, what I would, like to ask is that do you have, like, you mentioned that you have, like, similar, activities, like, during your classes? Like could you like, yeah.

We don't yeah. We we don't I can send you the, like, syllabus so that you can see what we're talking about. Oh, that's okay. But, basically, it's a master's, level course called, fandom and transmedia studies. So it basically goes through the, history of fandom, free digital, and we have a particular week that is dedicated to fan fan creativity.

So we talk about fan fiction. I made them try and read my immortal, the famous one, because I need him all like that. And, we we talk about, you know, similarities, differences, but I don't go into as much detail as you do with the abilities to recognize to differentiate between racial fiction and culture. Okay. About cosplay and fan vid and all sorts of fan creativity.

So Yeah. I think it's just one part of it. But, yeah, a lot of, my students do tend to later write projects because they have seminar papers which they can just choose whatever topic they want that is dedicated to fandom from, you know, any kind of research with the audience like you're doing, questionnaires and stuff or they can just analyse particular fan fics. So I do have people usually manga stuff, anime stuff, Harry Potter is always particularly popular. There was also something about I'm maybe I'm remembering wrong, but the sopranos or something like that.

Yeah. Yeah. So I just let them do their own research in whichever way So do they, like are your students like researchers on fan fiction or like do they write fan fiction themselves or do they No no. It's not creative. Alright.

Okay. So yeah. And I don't want to know what my what kind of fan fiction my students are into. Okay. Okay.

But, no. It's just academic research. Alright. Okay. Okay.

I had a guy do a particularly good paper on the theme of incest in particular anime fandom It's okay. Discussed 3 or 4 fan fics, and he connected that to the theme of taboo, transgressive literature, and stuff like that. So we always kinda try to, find, kind of a basis in literary studies or in cultural studies and then just use either fanfic or fanfic or whatever fandom phenomena, to kinda explore those things. Right, okay. And, let's see.

Do you think basically what do you think of like the sexual content of, like, fan fiction? Because I've, like, interviewed 1, fanfic writer and they they were they were like, like and and like different acoustics as well and basically, all of them said that, you need to have a very thick skin to be in the fandom to, like, yeah, not to to not really care about what people outside of the fandom thinks, and there there's, like, basically no way to create change in this? Well, I think it's been gradually changing. Mhmm. You know, very, very gradually.

Okay. Like, 4 to 30 years. Right? Because Mhmm. I I always start my course with showing them that famous SNL sketch Yeah.

With William Shatner and how fans are perceived as, like, basically losers. And nowadays, it's so mainstream. Mhmm. And, you know, even fanfic is, like, not a big deal. So people are gonna write what they wanna write and people are going to read what they wanna read.

And I was like, those are literary characters or fictional characters or whatever. You can do what you want with them. Everybody's going to actually suffer. So if you want to read that, go ahead. If you want to write that, go ahead.

Right. There is another thing because I'm like, I, I'm currently like doing another kind of intervention where I like kind of use fanfic as like a methodology to like encourage new aspiring writers who, like, want to write but, have have haven't got, like, really the guts to write and publish, like, original works to, like, sort of play in the sandbox a little bit. So, have you seen, like, any other, like, researchers done, like, something similar as that or, like, do you do you know whether this, like, whether this kind of, like, action research will create like significant change towards like the, the entire like stereotypes of fanfics. If you I'm just trying to see if I understood you correctly. Yeah.

So if you're encouraging, amateur writers to start off by doing fanfic. Yeah. Is that going to is that is research into that going to change the attitudes? Is that what you're asking me? I think so.

And and basically, like, the action of encouraging them to do it because like I'm currently trying to do that because it's it's sort of like lessens the pressure of like writing to like a hobby, so basically you can Uh-huh. Yeah, you can like you can like write anything about your character, you can you can like interact, even talk to your character, like it like as a start, I'm not I'm not saying like at the end, like like, using, this at the end. At the start, I I encourage them to like use chatgpt to like encourage, to, like, engage in a dialogue. So basically, like, so I I personally recently, like, created, like, an AI version of Jinx in Arcane, and then then I talked to her, and then there's like a dialogue essay about, about like the author talking to the character in that way, so it started like that. So currently there's like, like a small group of like 4 or 5 people starting off with those dialogue essay types and like short like slowly transcribing that into a story.

Mhmm. Yeah. Yeah. I don't think that's any different from how any other kind of literature starts. Mhmm.

It is easier at the beginning because you don't have to worry about creating a world or creating characters. You can just, you know, basically use them as dolls and just have them run around and do whatever. And if a writer wants to just spend their entire writing life writing time fic, that's fine. Right? It it doesn't, have to be a springboard for original fiction.

Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Brilliant.

Yeah. Definitely. Yeah. Yeah. Because a a lot of the time and the majority of those Mhmm.

Fantastic authors who do have literary aspirations, they do eventually, you know, spread out and start writing their own things. But if, you know, if the whole point is in the community because it's not as I understand it for not not just through my academic studies in fandom but through my, like, decades in fandom. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Definitely. Yeah. It's like, the whole point is the community. So it's people telling each other stories and if that's the enjoyment that you get from it, that that's fine. It's even sort of perhaps even more significant than the does the literary value because it's like, oh, I'm writing you a story and then somebody else writes them a story as an exchange or whatever and that that's great.

That's brilliant. That's what fandom is about. Not just, you know, screaming at each other. Kinda creating a community where Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Write stories for each other and stuff. Yeah. Okay. So yes.

So, currently, there's, yeah. So so I told you about, like, the 2, interventions that I'm currently doing. So, I'm currently not quite sure how to, like, let's say position, like, this particular part of the research because, so, let let's see. So do you think that, like, say this experiment is, like, worth exploring further or do I, like, start, like, viewing, this, like, project as, like, a holistic view or something? I think you can go further.

Yeah. Right? If you go with, then this particular question that I got on my screen now, how much do you agree that there are still barriers to full Yeah. Yeah. Fan fiction.

You can go and explore what barriers those are. Mhmm. Why they they are there. Right? It's not just about particular literary value.

It's also very much a matter of taste, which is a matter of class and elitism Yeah. And cultural canon, and then you go to Mhmm. Who creates canon. Right? Yeah.

Old white men. Right? Yeah. That's true. That's true.

Affection is basically a, play field for mostly queer women. Yeah. That's true. Young women. Mhmm.

And so you have multiple social elements there as well. Mhmm. So, yeah, you could, you know, just go further with that as well. Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. That that that that's brilliant. So, there's, like, one point of the project that I didn't, like, particularly focus on and that's, like, what you said before, which is, like, I'm not quite sure which words that I should use. Sorry, like, second language. I'll need to, like, check Google, like, for for a sorry.

Okay. That's fine. Oh yeah. Perspective. Thank you.

Yeah. There you go. Damn. We tend to forget the most all of your words. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean the perspective, of, like, original writers are are usually, like, straight white men. That that's, like, absolutely correct and, and there's, like, a lot of, like, graphs and, like, surveys and, like, info like, and demographics that, proves that such as, like, a 03, they're the the majority of writers are, like, from the queer community and most the majority of them are women, so, fan fiction, like, has, like, a strong, like, perspective of, like, show shows, like, the perspective of women and also the like, from a community that is, like, seldomly, voiced in the mass media in a way, I think.

Uh-huh. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Exactly. That is why you have so much. Yeah. If they haven't got their own stories Mhmm. Written for them, then they're going to write them themselves.

Yeah. And also, another thing is with a lot of fandom is neurodivergent, which tends to explain the hyperfixation. Right? So if you get into particular fandom, you are very you feel very strongly about it. Mhmm.

And you're going to, like, delve very deep into it, which, you know, for somebody who is neurotypical might not be something that is easily understandable. Mhmm. Because, you know, you read this and then you move on. But if you're very much into that world, if you find yourself in that world, you kinda just want to remain there. So yeah, it's a kind of a marginalised form of expression which of course explains the the kind of, view on it in main culture, but at the same time, it's, as I said, it's becoming more and more normalized.

Yeah. Yeah. Right? I I mean, even in my classes, which haven't got anything to do with fan fandom Mhmm. Like, in does the most regular history of English literature classes when I talk to them about, I don't know, the German and nun, Farzalika, who wrote, you know, fanfics of Terence's plays in the 10th century.

And they're like, yeah. Yeah. So it's something that, you know, even 10 years ago Mhmm. A lot of students would be like what? Oh, yeah.

Yeah. Definitely. Is it easier to like bridge, say like a literature gap like using fan fiction in a way? That is, like, just, like, an insights. I don't know if Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay.

And it's interesting because when you go to explain the difference, right, between intertextuality and fanfic, because in online spaces, where you haven't got much space dedicated to actual literary expertise Mhmm. Like, Spanish spaces, Tumblr, stuff like that. Yeah. So they're like, yeah. Ulysses is a fanfic of the Odyssey.

Mhmm. And there is a difference between that kind of use of original stories and the fanfic use of original stories because fanfics do not usually get into the dialogue with the original work. You kinda get them to for instance, if you're writing, what did you use as an example? Pride and Prejudice fanfic. Yeah.

Yeah. You're going to place those characters into different situations. You're not going to pay particular attention to literary techniques. You're not going to pay attention to those things, which, you know, a work like Richard Jones's diary, which uses Pride and Prejudice Mhmm. Gets into a very direct intertextual dialogue with, and it constantly draws your attention to the original.

Whereas the fanfic is just like, yeah, the original is bad and we're playing in that world, but the whole point is the the story. It's not the the technique of how the story is developed, at least in my experience. Right. Okay. So, so, from what I understand, what you're saying is that, original fiction have, like, more detailed techniques that, Well, not every not every original fiction.

I mean, you you have a a lot of trash. Okay. You know, if you compare a well written fanfic with something original that is terribly written, like Morris's book. Okay. Right?

You you it it doesn't mean that the original fiction is always better written. But the original fiction, is which uses particular, intertextual elements that have already been used by somebody else Mhmm. Is different from fanfic in that it is consciously talking about those elements. That's the difference. Right.

Okay. And, there's another, I think, phenomenon, I think, I I that I would like to discuss with you. So based on, like, Good Omens and, there's another show called Our Flag Means Death, those two shows have, like, the original creators of those shows have, basically been, like, encouraged and I wanna say benefited but that doesn't really sound like good, like, just say benefited in a good way, because, they have like a really encouraging fandom and they would, like exchange fan art and the actors would read fan fiction but, like obviously the writers can't and, those, those 2, like, franchises are like, sort of like evidence for, like, fan fiction, and fandom communities, like, creating goods, like, outside the fandom, like, even bridging into the original, and that's seldomly happens. Like, I I think, like, the more, kind of, the the more higher the literature the the more, classic the literature is, the harder it seems to get so, I'm wonder I'm wondering what you, would like to say about this phenomenon? When you have very classic very like high art lyrics, it doesn't really leave many gaps.

Okay. Yeah. Okay. Because when when we write handbook, we kind of want to fill in the gaps. Yeah.

In in the story, something has been left unsaid. Yeah. But and that's why usually you have something that is very popular, like Harry Potter, Good Omens, when it comes to like, books. Other Good Omens is transmedia. Yeah.

Yeah. But, A5 Means Death is just a TV show. I still haven't seen the 2nd seasons. Yeah. I'm saving it for, like, winter holidays.

So so it invites you by the gaps that it has. It invites you to kind of fill in those gaps, but when you have, like the the so called, highly rich chef. Yeah. I I don't know if there's a hierarchy of those. Okay.

Okay. Something something like Macbeth. Yeah. Even though it is tragic you kinda want them to stop being idiots. Yeah.

Stop killing people. Yeah. Yeah. And just go about living their life in a different way. The whole point of this story is that it ends tragically and so it kinda gives you enough satisfaction that you don't want to mess with it.

Right? Okay. Or something like Tess of the Dervigals. Her life is terrible. Yeah.

And yet I I'm sure there are some fanfiches that you don't have, like, reams of fan fiction about it. But something that is more, like, serialized. Some of the first fandoms when it comes to marriage. You you had like Louisa May Alpitt's Little Women. Yeah.

It's where where she literally had people send her letters about shipping. Like, I don't want Amy to end up with Laura. I want Joe and Laura to get together. So and it was published over a period of time in several sequels, so it kinda leaves in, some gaps that we want to fill. We we kinda see it as something that is attainable for us.

And and there's also a little bit of fear perhaps. Yeah. If you've got something that is particularly praised, I mean, who who who wants to add to, you know, somebody like Virginia Woolf. Mhmm. But you can add to somebody like JK Rowling.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That that's very interesting.

I, honestly, like, as a student, I didn't really, like, understood why, like like, really classic literature, like, doesn't really show any gaps. So, I I I I'm I I'm, like, quite curious about the fact that, there's, like, a lot of literature in in pop culture nowadays, like, unless, that can be classified as as like original, like as the really classical literature like Shakespearean stuff. So Although you do have, like with Shakespeare King Lear Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Which is a tragedy, right, which ends horribly. There was like a whole bunch of centuries when I have completely different version was played. This poet I think from the 17th century or 18th century not sure called Nam Tate created basically his own version which was Oh, okay. It is a fanfic because it it's Shakespeare that ends happily in there and it was played for centuries. Mhmm.

You know, the romantics that they wanted King Lear, they had to read it in the original otherwise, you know, what was played was Nam Tate's fix it fake. Yeah. So it's not that it can't be done and I'm sure, you know, because it's the Internet rule that's it exists. But, it perhaps doesn't invite such a fanatical Mhmm. Desire to add to it.

Right. Okay. Okay. That that's really intriguing. Okay.

So I think, basically, I've only got, like, one last question, I think. So, back to, like, my project which is, like, encouraging, like, new writers, people who haven't, like, written at all, like, to kind of, like, bridge the gap between, like, their own art, which is, like, con like, considered bad art because people, like, always write bad art from the start and yeah. Well, I mean I I mean I think it's true and, well, yeah. Everybody's perfect on their first try in anything. Yeah.

Yeah. So I I'm basically like, creating a portal in a way to help them practice their courage in like promoting their arts and publishing their arts like in in a community or a safe space, so I'm not quite sure how this can eventually have a bridge to original fiction or whether it's it needs to do that, but, I would like to hear, like, hear your advice about that, I think. Yeah. Well, I don't know. Because I honestly if I go from my experience I started writing original fiction from the beginning.

Okay. Okay. So I never wrote fanfic. Everything that I published has been original. But basically, maybe just try to give them let them focus on a character that is basically just a name Mhmm.

In the original fic in the original work. Mhmm. So for instance, I don't know, in in in Good Omens, in the second season when they got that ball. Yeah. Okay.

Choose one of the characters who are there who who who don't speak. Okay. Yeah. Who you know nothing about. Oh, I get what you mean.

Because that's basically just an empty space that they can fill with whatever they want and probably each person will have a different character they are creating. So maybe that could be a kind of a way to see how, you know, well versed they are in characterization and stuff like that. Okay. That is, like, absolutely amazing. Okay.

I don't think I have, like, any questions left. Okay. So thank you so much for, like, this interview and, like, for and and thank you so much for your feedback. And, let's see. I I will send because, I I'm probably gonna need, you to send to, like, sign a participant consent form.

You only need to sign your name, like, to, like, ensure that you're pass participating in this project. And, yeah, I think, that is basically it. So oh oh and can I take like a screenshot of like this in, this, this interview chat? Yeah sure. Yeah.

Thank you. Thank you so much. You're welcome and yeah, good luck. Yeah. Thank you so much.

And if there's any other questions or whatever, I can help you in any way, just shoot me an email. Yeah. Okay. Brilliant. Great.

Thank you so much. Okay. Not at all. Bye. Okay.

Yeah. Bye. See you. Thank you so much. See you.